Saturday, August 15, 2009

Philosophy commentary expert commentary 8/15/2009

Should primitive social cultures be considered human rights abuses? If so why, If not why not?


User Comments

  1. jafabrit
    when you say primitive social cultures give an example? I would say geography, resources, colonization/exploitation and the political legacy of that play a role in how a country develops.
    1. wmanosh
      OK......for you I will say the middle eastern women s culture and the Muslims or the afghan women subordination sexually to there husbands...

      William
  2. cooper
    Further elaboration please. I was an anthropology undergrad and though I imagine you could make varied arguments you might find it interesting just how civilized some primitive cultures are.
    1. wmanosh
      Cooper, the same response for you as for Jafabrit. No hurry to respond.....Thank-you.

      William
  3. timethief
    Please clarify because I don't know exactly which "primitive social cultures" you are referring to.
  4. husdal
    Maybe you should fill your blog with some actual content before promoting it? While the topic itself is perhaps worth discussing, your blog does not provide much grounds for it or why you come up with your POV.
  5. timethief
    Blog? What blog? A series of posts containing only links is a blog? Who knew?
  6. wmanosh
    ...for you all I will say the middle eastern women s culture(s) and/or the afghan women subordination sexually to there husbands...
    1. Anok
      I don't consider Middle Eastern cultures "primitive cultures" in any respect. They may be considered socially archaic, but not primitive.

      When I first read the thread I immediately thought of indigenous cultures and tribes - who are indeed "primitive" in the sense that they lack scientific technology and advancements. But many if not most of the tribes actually suffer human rights abuses at the hands of westernization - not from their own tribe members.
  7. wmanosh
    Timethief......right now I am having a hard time with the software to comment on my link posts..when I get the time to get the "glitch" fixed you can be sure that after all the hard work I put in to my blog, I will certainly put my two cents worth into my blog.....that also goes for you as well Husdal. Thanks for noticing....in the meantime you can learn something from those links right?????? If not than do not waist your time no one is forcing you to criticize my work here.....It is not what I was asking pay attention to the question not the format of my blog....

    best regards

    William
    1. husdal
      I am paying attention to the question, but what is that you are asking?

      a) Is the Middle East women's culture(s) and/or the sexual subordination of Afghan women to their husbands a Human Rights abuse?
      b) Is the Middle East women's culture(s) and/or the sexual subordination of Afghan women to their husbands a primitive social culture?
      c) Are primitive social cultures Human Rights abuse?
      d) ?

      In any case, the culture and/or social structure of the Middle East and Afghanistan are very different from each other. I go with Anok here, archaic maybe, but primitive, I don't think so. And why would they be primitive and we not?
  8. wagerwitch
    Actually we have quite a few cultures that are considered pillaged by the world in many ways.

    For example - Weblogian - a member here is of NAGA.

    The Naga are extremely suppressed in many ways - and there are other cultures that face the same dilemma.

    It is something that is rarely spoken of - because the oppressing factions do NOT want you to know about it.

    Now - about women and cultures... hmmmm to me - that is an entirely different topic. Women have been considered second class citizens in almost every society - up until recently. So this is something slow to change.

    But a race of people - both males and females to be subverted, abused and pillaged because of their race... we still have it happening in this world today.

    Most people just aren't aware of it.
    1. husdal
      Most people just aren't aware of it. Agree.

      You will find racial or ethnic discrimination or whatever discrimination in practically almost every society, every culture, every country in the world, and THAT (discrimination) is the real 'primitive social culture'.
  9. greencurmudgeon
    Referring to the culture(s) of the Middle East as "primitive" is patronising and insulting.

    In the British Museum, there is an Persian vase from the 15th century, which is covered with poetry, stating (forgive my bad memory): "I write these lines in the middle of the desert for my love, in the hopes that she will pity me and remember me." It is a sublime piece of work, which immortalises a love which happened many hundreds of years ago.

    Now, we may not like the human rights abuses that occur in the Middle East, but this is more the function of modern repression rather than the roots of civilisation. Change will have to come from the people who live there; we can support them, but to call them "primitive" helps absolutely nothing.
  10. Rivy
    Whatever culture is the given appears to remain so until that culture interacts with another. The change occurs. Slowly. Awkwardly. Even resentfully and oppressively. But the culture adjusts. Transforms.
    Cultures that remain in isolation evolve more slowly.

    Historically it seems cultures that developed more avenues of exploration and trade became "civilized" (as in learning civility to others) at a faster rate.

    Certainly aggression was (and remains) a major force. But assimilation happens.Change occurs.

    Even within cultures sub-cultures exist. I am an American. (Which evolved from exploration, conquest, settlement, immigration, imported slavery and workers, etc, forming its own distinction.) But within the United States I grew up in the Arkansas Ozarks in relative isolation. A "hillbilly ". Not a "southerner" in the delta slave-holding south sense, but more stereotyped by such as the Hatfields and McCoys, Lil' Abner, Beverly Hillbillies, Okies, etc. Some of us took it with humor, others were offended. But we traveled.
    Heard radio. Saw movies.Got TV. Now the internet. Assimilated.

    'Tis happening globally. For good I think.
  11. wmanosh
    To all that responded Kudos for your eloquent responses. All I can really say is that you have helped me to ponder "angles" to my own opinion(s) to a certain degree somewhat. I agree with some of you and disagree with others. However, that is the intent of the question. To get perspectives other than my own to integrate into my discussion on my blog. I have fixed the glitch and upgraded the "JSkit" software so that I may add my two cents on my article posts and add my analysis/arguments/and opinions. Maybe some of you do not like primitive and prefer archaic...whats the difference really? hmmm oh well. The integration argument is an interesting one which I really like and it makes sense logically. I still think that the middle east "is" primitive when compared to most of the rest of the western world......so I have to disagree with that commenter..no offense.I never heard of the Weblogians but I will look them up so I do learn something new! I think that one commenter just really repeated all of my questions and did not really give his opinion yet....I hope he does.I am a bit at a loss still where he stands...I'm afraid that yes most of the human rights that are being suffered by tribal members "are" being suffered at the hands of there own tribal members, and not at the hands of the westerners.....Sorry but I disagree with that commenter...No offense..Oh and yes aggression will definitely occur I have to agree with that commenter very logical comment....That explains the abuses! Makes sense right?I hope I didn't leave anyone out! Thanks for the overwhelming responses!!!!!!!!!

    Best Regards

    William
  12. husdal
    I still think that the middle east "is" primitive when compared to most of the rest of the western world

    I really think you should elaborate why you think so. I cannot for the life of me see why the Middle East is more primitive. Mind you, this was the cradle of many great and sophisticated civilizations, and we wouldn't even have the numbers we use today were it not for the Arabs.

    The most common meaning of 'archaic' is 'old and no longer in use'. That does not make it primitive. The social culture and social customs 200 years ago were probably a lot more sophisticated than today, at least among the ruling classes, perhaps not so much among the everyday peasant.

    Back to the point. I do not consider the middle eastern women s culture and the Muslims or the afghan women subordination sexually to there husbands a primitive social culture. I don't consider it just or fair or humane, but it has grown to become established in their culture as it is now, and over time, hopefully, it will change.
  13. jafabrit
    I think you need to rephrase the term primitive social cultures, Patriarchal systems in some countries, poor women's rights in others perhaps but primitive is like others mentioned patronizing. It also comes across as culturally arrogant.

    Turkey for instance is not archaic or primitive and yet it is a middle eastern country and a muslim one.

    "I still think that the middle east "is" primitive when compared to most of the rest of the western world..."

    What about regions in India, china, south america? Ah, but there's the rub, "compared to western world". My alarm bells are going off. Is this really about women's rights or the superiority of the west?
  14. wmanosh
    Husdal...I am glad you responded, Its my opinion... you of course have yours... yes I know the Arabs at one time had almost conquered all of the world its a fact your right. But, that was then this is now. They chose not to modernize nor industrialize like the west. Not to say they are a primitive culture. Never meant to say that. As far as your other comments/concerns I agree and tend to think you are a cultural relativist and that's just fine to! I am glad jafabrit decided to weigh-in.lol. No its not about western power I am not narrow minded like that nor is it about women s rights............Where I am heading or trying to,is should societal practices in some countries that are not in line with Internationale laws (human rights abuses)be regarded as human rights abuse? Or should they be simply coined as "culturally relative" and dismissed by human rights legislation machinery? That's it! No more no less.....Thanks for responding...

    William
    1. husdal
      3 hours ago (new)
      Cultural relativist, me? Maybe yes. That said, I don't think societal or cultural practices that abuse, oppress, discriminate or in any other way degrade other humans should be dismissed as simply 'just the way they run things over there'. They should be opposed. But we should not stamp other societies as 'primitive'. They have evolved for a reason and we can only abolish abusive practices if we first understand the reason for why they exist.

      Sorry for saying this, but have you ever been to the Middle East, let alone Dubai?
      They chose not to modernize nor industrialize like the west
      There would be no oil exploration in Middle East if this were true.

      The - to me - fatal flaw in your argument is that the West (or Western way of thinking) is modern and the East (or Eastern way of thinking) is primitive. Or have I misunderstood you?
  15. Anok
    3 hours ago (new)
    A couple of key differences:

    ar·cha·ic
    No longer current or applicable; antiquated: archaic laws. See Synonyms at old.


    prim·i·tive (prĭm'ĭ-tĭv)
    adj.

    1. Not derived from something else; primary or basic.
    2.
    1. Of or relating to an earliest or original stage or state; primeval.
    2. Being little evolved from an early ancestral type.
    3. Serving as the basis for derived or inflected forms: Pick is the primitive word from which picket is derived.
    4. Being a protolanguage: primitive Germanic.
    5. Of or created by an artist without formal training; simple or naive in style.
    6. Of or relating to the work of an artist from a nonindustrial, often tribal culture, especially a culture that is characterized by a low level of economic complexity.
    3. Characterized by simplicity or crudity; unsophisticated: primitive weapons. See Synonyms at rude.
    4. Anthropology Of or relating to a nonindustrial, often tribal culture, especially one that is characterized by a low level of economic complexity: primitive societies.


    Many if not most primitive tribes do NOT participate in patriarchal based human rights abuses such as forced sex/spousal rape, or the second class citizenry of women. They understand - being tribes - that every person on the tribe or village has a great importance because everyone's contributions are invaluable to the tribe's survival.

    Rape is not acceptable, forced marriage is not acceptable (although some tribes still practice arranged marriages, this is not forced) women have equal rights under the tribe's laws - and equal say in their tribe. Some tribes practice polygamy - for both men and women.

    To say that one particular part of the world is "primitive" based on their treatment of woman is a double edged insult. Primitive tribes (RE: undeveloped tribes) do not engage in such heinous activities, and the middle east is not primitive in the sense that they have no technology or scientific/industrial advancements.

    The ideology that women are less than is archaic - or antiquated - that is to say outdated. And before anyone gets on their high horse about the Middle East and equality issues - just remember that it wasn't that long ago in the US when women finally gained the right to vote, own property, and divorce abusive husbands. It wasn't all that long ago that we started affording women here legal protections and legal equality.

    So let's hold the phone on judgment, shall we?
    1. greencurmudgeon
      3 hours ago (new)
      stands up and applauds
    2. timethief
      3 hours ago (new)
      Also stands and applauds!
    3. Anok
      2 hours ago (new)
      *bows*

  16. Agit8r
    2 hours ago (new)
    I still diss on those unenlightened societies that pay women less for the same job
    1. greencurmudgeon
      2 hours ago (new)
      Which would be most of them. We have a long way to go.
    2. timethief
      2 hours ago (new)
      No kidding. Here are some appalling stats:
      In 2005, over 14 percent of American women lived in poverty. Among single mothers, this number rose to over 31 percent. This is clearly unacceptable, both for the women and families immediately affected and for society as a whole.
        * Nearly 1 in 4 girls does not graduate from high school
        * Female dropouts earn on average 7 percent below the Federal Poverty Line for a family of three ($15,520 vs. $16,600) while women with high school diplomas earn on average 32 percent above that level ($21, 936 vs. $16,600)
        * Girls make up 87 percent of students in traditionally female fields such as cosmetology and childcare and only 15 percent of those in traditionally male fields. Those who enter traditionally female occupations can generally expect to earn half—or less—of what they would earn in a traditionally male field
        * Women still earn on average 78 cents for every dollar paid to men.

1 comment:

William said...

This was excellent commentary from some internet "experts" that I had to post to the site. There are some gripping philosophies and debates that if you take the time to read through you can feel how passionate each commenter is about the question. This is what I love about blogging........

William